In an earlier blog (that people seemed to like!), I explained in no uncertain terms that moving your BT Master socket was potentially A Bad Idea.
But That’s Not The Full Story…
There is a way of translating exactly what your BT Master Socket does to wherever you’d prefer to have your broadband router plugged in somewhere else in your house.
Totally legally, easily done, and without compromising your broadband quality by mixing it up with other stuff (which might interfere and slow it down). Please read on!
What Does A Master Socket Do, Anyway?
There’s nothing mysterious in it. It simply serves as the border between you wiring and that of Openreach (former BT). It’s an electronic boundary post, first and foremost. It’s a physical break for testing Openreach’s supply to your house.
BT Openreach’s Bit
Two terminals/pins marked A and B are behind that socket front, and your broadband and telephone traffic arrives on these. I’m frequently amazed that 50mb can arrive via two 0.5mm wires. But it does.
So, what if you wanted to move those two wires that arrive in your house to somewhere else?
The choices are:-
a/ Move the master socket. (We can’t really (officially) do that. But it’s possible, with additional cabling and jointing)
b/ Take a “feed” of your incoming “filtered” broadband signal and take it to where your broadband router needs to be (quite easy, thanks to the provision of two connections called “A” and “B”. ) Puzzled? Don’t worry -read on.
So, it’s fairly easy:-
Thank-you for “A” and “B”!
These are two pins on the customer side of later-model master sockets. They give just the same signal as the smaller socket on the front of the master socket, namely a nice, clean broadband signal, straight from the network, filtered of any nasty telephone-extension or wiring noise. Less interference means more speed.
N.B.! This is an already-filtered output – connecting another filter onto this filtered signal will stop the broadband working.
What on Earth Do I Connect Them To?
Take a look at the lead from your broadband router. The plug at the end normally has two adjacent gold pins. We need to get the “A” and “B” signal to them. Don’t worry – we will.
Here’s the vaguely technical bit – an ethernet socket (the kind that can be seen in business data networks) has a number of colour-coded pins (similar in style to the “A” and “B”). These are marked on the rear. There is a pair which is shown as “blue and blue/white”.
Your router lead plug, although smaller, will actually fit into an ethernet socket and clip in fairly securely. The two gold pins on the plug will connect with the blue-blue/white connectors. All you need to do now is to punch down the wires coming from “A” and “B” on the master socket ontot these connectors, and you’ve delivered a filtered broadband service straight from your master socket to your router.
Fine – But That Small Plug Looks Very Wobbly In That Larger Socket…
Yes it does, but trust me, it works! I carry out considerable work for a major UK pub chain, and their electronic stock control and till system, utterly critical for their business, uses just this method at most sites to connect to their head office.
However, someone, no doubt, will comment below that this is some kind of bodge. Well, if you want a more elegant solution, find an RJ11 socket (designed to fit your modem lead). Not as readily available as the RJ45 (ethernet) socket, but the better way of doing it. Beyond that, if you have steady hands and the right tools, crimp an RJ45 plug onto your router lead. (There – that should silence the smarty-pants people…)
Oh, a P.S. You’ll need a wire insertion tool. A jolly good thing to have, and with useful life beyond this project. Again, eBay/Amazon. Also called a “Krone Tool”
All the above is normally available on eBay/Amazon.
Quality Cable – You Need It
Use professional-quality telephone cable (from…guess where..?). This will have solid cores (not braided, that is, made up of tiny strands crushed together). It will also have a “twist” in the pairs of cable, a bit like a hair plait. This feature means you lose less of the signal as it travels down the cable. This is also available on-line. This is more important than it seems, trust me. I’ve blogged about it here .
Run Your Cable!
Make sure you run the cable between the two sockets, away from anything significantly electrical, such as TV, monitor, central heating pump, power supplies, transformers, nuclear power stations, GCHQ listening stations, fluorescent tube lighting, Daleks, or consistently parallel to mains cables, etc., etc. You won’t manage to dodge all of it, but do your best! Outside the house is often good, provided external cable is used.
Check For Signs of Life
Your router should boot up. Sometimes it takes a while. Polarity of wires (i.e. which way round they go) is not critical. Amazingly, broadband will even function on a single wire, but at half-speed or less. If your speed has dropped suddenly, check your connections.
That’s It!
You’ve just “moved” your master socket. Your old “A” and “B” have been translated to the new data socket. Your broadband signal should be free of interference.
One More Time…
Your broadband arrives via the “A” and “B” pins on the back of the original master socket. A “filtered” (also called “A” and “B” supply is available on the customer’s side of original master socket. Connected is then made to the “blue -blue/white” pins on the remote (RJ45/”ethernet” socket.
Any Questions? Well I suspect you might ask…
Speed Loss
“Don’t you lose some of the broadband signal via the cable run to the new socket?”
Well, provided that you are keeping the new cable fairly clear of any source of interference, you won’t lose much at all, probably about as much as you would if your house was a few yards down the street, and further away from the exchange.
Why Not Cat 5 / Cat 6?
“Shouldn’t you be using high-specification Ethernet/network “Cat 5” data network cable to connect the two sockets?
Yes, instructions found in some new sockets supplied by Openreach stress this. It’s a source of much debate among professionals, including some that I network with on-line. I don’t think it makes any difference – it has arrived at your house along non-Ethernet cable so far, often a couple of miles from the exchange. There are even those who say that broadband was actually designed to run on traditional telephone cable.There’s casual evidence from a former BT senior engineer “insider” that this is correct. So, providing that you use solid-core, twisted-pair cable (that is, professional-grade stuff, not cheap and nasty, often used by burglar alarm companies), losses should be minimal.
What About Plugging My Phone Into This New Socket?
The aim of using the filtered “A and B” is to separate your voice (telephone) service from your broadband at the point of entry, via the superior filter of the master socket. If you need to supply a voice service, cable from pins 2 and 5 on the maste socket and run a separate cable. Alternatively, use a cordless phone with the base either plugged into the master socket, or on a short, hard-wired socket.
Why Can’t I Joint Straight Onto The Line?
“Can’t I just connect to the A and B on the back of the original master, the ones that have BT/Openreach’s incoming line connected?”
No. That original master needs to remain as the boundary between your premises cabling and their network, via the detachable frontplate. If you’ve ever had to deal with a persistent line noise problem (and dispute), believe me, it’s vital to have that demarcation point. Remove the front plate and you can prove that the problem is on Openreach’s side in seconds.
Won’t A Joint Do?
“Why can’t I just put a joint in where the old master socket is, and do away with the master socket?”
Well, you could, providing it doesn’t cause a fault on the Openreach network. If a fault develops, Openreach send an engineer, and it appears that you’ve bodged the joint, therefore causing the problem, they may sting you for a £200 reinstallation fee , especially if you’ve put a short circuit on their network. And most non-engineers don’t know how to joint in-line cables in the same way that engineers do. So it’s very hard to hide the evidence. I’ve seen it done…
I’ve blogged about the do’s and don’t of jointing cables here
Most master sockets were located in ground floor areas near the point of cable entry, typically the hall or front room. Rarely were they put elsewhere. £20.00 on materials, or a potential £200.00 fee?
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The first sane explanation I have seen of what I want to do: turn an extension socket into a modem friendly socket for VDSL. Let’s hope it works!
So the front on the BT master stays. & Theses Faceplates plug in????, So its Better Quality extension lead with built in filters rather than the plug Micro filters. & cheap splitters???. & you don’t feed the wire into the old master socket, & just into the faceplate????
Hello,
Thanks for the comment.
Connect “A” and “B” on the first (master) socket filtered plate to “A” amd “B” on a second socket of the same type. Those “A” and “B” are the “in” or “out” straight to the line.
I hope that this is clear.
The photos shows a superceded faceplate – Openreach have introduced two newer types since I wrote this blog, but all more recent ones have the “A” and “B” pins, as well as the usual voice-side “2”, “3”, and “5” for filtered voice extensions. A filtered face plate is more effective and reliable than the plug-in dangle-out types.
I hope this helps!
Rob
Why 2 identical face plates? I’ve followed this successfully for ADSL but am now upgrading to fibre. Do I need to buy 2 VDSL2 faceplates
Thanks
Mike
Thanks for the visit.
By “upgrading to fibre”, do you mean that you will have fibre to your premises (which involves specialised termination equipment), or fibre to a local cabinet, with your service delivered on a copper pair to your premises?
Two face plates. One becomes the slave to the other master, giving the advantages of the high-performance filtered face plate, and a supply straight from our incoming line, but on the customer side of the master socket, so still legitimate in terms of network testing.
Hi Rob, brilliant blogs on everyday topics that most can follow easily. Good job! However, I would like to ask a brief question about relocating Master socket. I have an NTE5C Master located in a small room to the front of my property and want to relocate it to my lounge. I understand the principles of this after following your info, but wanted to know if I can use the A&B on the front of the VDSL MK4 to run the cable to the lounge and then use an NTE5 and VDSL MK3 to connect the A&B to the rear of the NTE5? I know this seems odd, but as the NTE5C is slightly smaller than the NTE5 backbox it probably won’t fit an old aerial socket to route the cable down the wall so not having to channel out new access.
Thanks for your kind words.
An ADSL/VDSL line can only have one filter. A filter after a filter (which is what I think you are proposing) will stop the signal. A and B on the front of the later-generation NTE5s are a filtered output. If you filter this with a second filter, this will stop it working.
I would recommend either rerouting the cable with an external joint to a wall entry point to the lounge, or using a connection box such as the 78A to joint the existing cable, eliminating the first NTE5.
I hope I have understood you correctly, and that this has been helpful.
A question you might want to cover:
If I have an existing extension socket, can I convert that into a new second master?
From your instructions, it looks like a case of just moving the wires around inside the old master plug. Or is that against BT’s rules?
Of course, we’d never advocate interfering with Openreach’s equipment… As per this and earlier blogs, providing you connect the “A and B” pins (corresponding to numbers 2 and 5 on a slave socket or on the main master’s face plate), then you can replicate the unfiltered output of “A and B” (or “2 and 5” providing nothing else is connected to it) on the main master socket to somewhere elsewhere in your premises, connecting it (ideally) to another socket with a filtered face plate (which are much more effective than a “plug-in and dangle” filter). The key issue in respect of Openreach’s equipment is being able to disconnect all your premises wiring from their network at the main master socket where their cable enters your premises in order to allow a test straight onto their network. Thanks for your interest and comments!
Hello, many thanks for this insightful piece. I would like to do this in our new house, but we will get a BT Fibre installation. Will it still work as you describe, or do I need to watch out for something (e.g. what faceplate to use, etc.)?
Hello. Thanks for your kind words. Have you seen one of my othger blogs on this?
https://telecomgreen.co.uk/engineering/moving-bt-infinity-master-socket/
Also, there’s loads of advice available via Google on this topic, as I used it to research the blog.
My first thought is that you should run an ethernet (Cat 5 / Cat 6) cable from the hub to wherever you need the service to be, and terminate it on an RJ45 socket. Data in commercial premises runs like this. All the various bits to allow you to do this are available on-line.
I hope that this helps.
Rob
Hi there, very informative post and I’m looking to undertake the work soon for some friends that have just moved into a new house. You mentioned in the above post…
‘Buy two filtered faceplates from the same source, one for your new master socket, one for the old one. (Don’t worry – all will be explained.)’
You didn’t explain and I’m just wondering why you’ll need one for the old socket?
Thanks, Dave.
Thanks for the comment. Maybe I didn’t put it that well. Further down is point 5/ which should explain it. You are effectively connecting the incoming “A and B” between each identical socket, and benefiting from the centralised filter facility on the new socket.
I hope this explains it. Otherwise, please come back to me!
Hello,
Thanks for the well described post, I have one question though.
Can I still plug my telephone into the New master socket as well as my broadband router or is this only for broadband?
Many Thanks
Darren
Thanks for the kind words.
The answer is “yes” – both broadband and voice services travel over the same single pair of wires, so providing the pair are present, then you will be able to receive both. All I’m advocating in the blog is replicating the original master socket at another point in the house. Rob.
Fantastic, thanks Rob, I’ll be tackling this at the weekend.
Best regards
Darren
Thanks for this information. Pretty much exactly what I was looking for but there is one small detail that I wanted to clarify and I wanted to see if I had you right in principle…
When installing a faceplate on the original master socket I am basically presented with the unfiltered A and B terminals without having to tamper on the BT side of things. This is basically the same as the two connections coming into the house but are simply transmitted to the terminals on the faceplate through the test socket, correct?
I then run cable from the terminals A and B on the faceplate on the original master socket into a new master socket. Do I terminate this pair of cables directly into terminals A and B in the new master socket or do I connect them to the suggested facplate on the new master socket.
The way I understand it I should wire them directly to the new master socket. Although I accept the filtering to be better with the faceplate, a dangly box filter should work the same for testing purposes, correct?
Many thanks again for your help on this.
Thanks for your kind comments.
When installing a faceplate on the original master socket I am basically presented with the unfiltered A and B terminals without having to tamper on the BT side of things. This is basically the same as the two connections coming into the house but are simply transmitted to the terminals on the faceplate through the test socket, correct?
Correct!
I then run cable from the terminals A and B on the faceplate on the original master socket into a new master socket. Do I terminate this pair of cables directly into terminals A and B in the new master socket or do I connect them to the suggested faceplate on the new master socket.
You could do either, but I’d be inclined to put them onto the “exchange-side” A and B, that is, on the non-detatchable bit. Then they are out of sight, and out of “harm’s way”
The way I understand it I should wire them directly to the new master socket. Although I accept the filtering to be better with the faceplate, a dangly box filter should work the same for testing purposes, correct
Yes. But the “faceplate” filters tend to be of a higher spec.and are more reliable than the dangle ones. I have replaced some dangle ones and seen a marked increase in speed.
Many thanks again for your help on this.
You’re welcome!
Rob
Hello,
Visibly all the phone sockets in my property look identical.
Please can you tell me, is there away inside the face plates to identify which is the master?
This question is because I understand that routers need to be plugged into the master socket or is this incorrect?
Thank you
It’s quite possible that you don’t have one! Older locations don’t. And occasionally they are removed by a previous owner. The master is usually at the first point of entry of the Openreach cable to the building. You could possibly connect the router at any of the sockets. However, I would always recommend disconnecting any sockets you don’t use, as they can attract interference. I hope that this helps. Rob
Hi, just following up on your instructions re moving the master socket, can you advise me exactly what I need to buy?
I already have fibre Broadband, with a BT mk3 master socket downstairs that gets about a third of the speed it should be getting due to running an extension upstairs to PC.
It’s not possible to plug the router in direct as it needs to be near the computer upstairs.
The other problem is the master socket has connections to my sky box downstairs living room and downstairs telephone, so how would those be affected?
Let me know everything I need and I’ll do a search on Amazon or eBay.
Cheers n regards.
Tommy
Hello,
Buy an identical Mk3 Master socket from eBay or elsewhere, and connect the A and B terminals to the same A and B on the upstairs “master socket”, as per the description in the blog. Your Sky box connections will remain on the filtered side of the downstairs socket, so should not be affected.
The speed loss you mention sounds serious – you shouldn’t be losing that much. Have you tried plugging your router straight into the downstairs master and see if there is a speed increase? A new cabled connection to the duplicate master should improve matters.
I hope that this helps. There’s much more available via Google.
Thanks for visiting.
Rob
Hi Rob, I did plug the router into the downstairs master, but the speed went down rather than up, Two BT engineers have checked the wiring in my house and can find no faults, I’m under 2 miles from the exchange, my ISP say I should be getting around 32 to 36 Kbps down speed, but I have never got more than 12.
Not sure where I go from here but will keep you updated.
Tommy
Tommy,
This is where the master socket really does become your friend. If you are testing from there back to the exchange, and not getting the required speed, then it’s time to persist with your ISP to get it sorted. You are paying for the service. What speed do they predict?
Around 36 Kbps Rob,
I’ve had a laptop connected downstairs all day today with Ethernet and RJ11 going to the master and never got higher than 8 Kbps.
That was me also taking out the telephone and sky connection, but no change either, and I’m not using a filter.
The ISP say to keep it connected so they can check it from their side, but I’ve heard nothing from them.
I also have a spare router I was wondering if I could bring into play, weather not great today, but don’t reckon it’s a factor in this case.
Will keep you updated.
Cheers
Tommy
Definitely an ISP-side issue, be that due to modem or line quality.. I really does need to be pursued with them, be that through an Openreach visit/investigation, emplacement proven modem, or both.
Just a wee update Rob, a third engineer on the way Tomorrow, and to top it all off, our phone system is down tonight, you have to laugh , will keep you updated
PS Router is connected to master test socket via filter and we are getting speeds of about 12 mbps down and 1.5 mbps up
12Mb down is respectable. A quick look at https://availability.samknows.com/broadband/ will give you some idea of your distance from the exchange and what you should be getting. It’s a reliable, respected site.
Hi again Rob, finally an engineer who seems to have gotten to the bottom of it all.
Seems there was some BT wiring fault at the junction at the beginning of my street, a new connection and cable have been installed, I’ve run a speed test with the excellent down speed of almost 33 Mbps and up speed of just over 2.5 Mbps.
Hopefully it should now be stable, but we are still seeking some sort of compensation from our ISP for the previous reduction in service.
Regards
Tommy
Good news! Sometimes you just have to persist with an engineering company which often seems under-resourced and under-skilled. Meanwhile, if my comments have been useful, could you please leave some feedback on our Facebook and/or Google Plus page, please? Cheers
Hi Rob, excellent blogs, thanks for all the info. However, one thing has always troubled me in relation to who owns what, etc. and I hope you can help. I realise that the provider owns the MS (in my case a NTE5a) and I mustn’t tamper with it or face financial penalty, etc BUT does that apply to the lower removable face-plate itself? There are all sorts of I-plate, ADSL, VDSL faceplates for sale to do the kind of projects you see written about here and elsewhere, so I presume I’m at complete liberty to screw any one of them to the MS? And rewiring/replacing the ENTIRE NTE5a MS if it is faulty is a no-no I guess?
Thanks again, David
Thanks for the kind words. The lower part of an NTE5 is the customer’s side of things, so you can add anything that it designed to fit, then cable from there to wherever you need to.
Openreach don’t seem to care much about folks moving master sockets these days, but of course I have to give the official line.
I’ve not heard of anyone being penalised, but I do know that Openreach will charge if a fault is created due to incorrect wiring on (technically) their side of the master socket, and they have to send someone to site.
Master sockets and other Openreach-standard cabling equipment is far more readily available now than it was when I first started blogging on this topic some years ago. And it’s not massively complex to cable a new one if you need to.
I hope that this helps.
Hi Rob
Looks just the answer to moving the master socket near to an electric socket however when I checked the master socket it looked nothing like one pictured above a lot smaller socket about 65mm square with an old fashioned Telecom symbol on it. Is it possible to move this ?
Thanks for visiting!
Very old installations may not have a master (NTE5) socket. I’ve worked at a few places recently just like this. The old-style “T” logo dates it to pre-’85 or earlier! It’s quite important to have one with the detachable front panel to allow testing in case there are disputes with your provider over line noise, faults, etc. And most call centre operatives won’t believe you if you say you haven’t got one (because it’s not on their script…)
My recommendation is to add “78A” junction box where the current socket is, buy a new master (the latest is the NTE5C with a built-in filter), cable to where you want to it be (near where your router needs to be and close to a power socket), and the job’s done. All items are available on eBay.
If this has been helpful, would you be able to leave some feedback, please at the following?:-
https://plus.google.com/+TelecomgreenCoUk
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Thanks
Rob
Hi -trying to move master skt from windowsill to inner wall with power skts. Bought phone and modem skt components etc (have some cat5 cable already) but when i took off the master skt adsl plate expecting to find extension terminals, theres none. Plus one BT cable goes to terminals A & B and a 2nd cable from BT goes into the phone plate. Whats that all about and can i still extend phone and adsl from a&b terminals or can ibuy the adsl faceplate with the extension terminals separately? Many thanks jonathan.
Hello,
The ADSL front plate typically has “2”, “3”, and “5”, then “A” and “B” on the front, next to them. The mainstream suppliers all seem to be like this. You may have a strange make that doesn’t have them.
As to the other cable, this could be an extension within the house if it’s been done properly. Have you been in the house long, and do you know if the previous owner cabled some extensions from the master socket? Alternatively, someone may have fiddled with BT’s incoming cable for purposes unknown. It happens.
I hope that this helps. It’s hard to diagnose without seeing it!
Rob
Thanks for your article.
I have a BT openreach mk3 face plate with one socket above the other. If i run a cable from A and B connectors on it to an extension my speed is reduced to abot 20Mbps on both spckets. With the extension disconnected I get about 37Mbps through the master scoket. I assune the signal is being split. How do I get all the signal to go to the extension.
Thanks
Thanks for your kind words.
Your situation is difficult to diagnose without knowing the configuration of the extension cabling.
If you did not run the cabling yourself, there may be “horrors” hidden away from sight that cause the loss of speed.
This is where the process of elimination and hard-won experience of an experienced engineer is required. I do have contacts close to youup and down the UK who may be able to help.
Hi,
I’ve followed this blog and replaced my old faceplate with a filtered one, wired a and b on the faceplate to the a and b on the back of a new matching master socket using good quality solid core telephone cable.
I’ve plugged my new matching filtered faceplate into the master socket I’ve installed and the internet is working but at a crawling pace. It was consistently 2mb/s but it is now about 0.2mb/s and literally unusable (using 4G on my phone for internet at the moment).
The run from original master socket to new master socket in around 10m. Any idea what could be causing the dramatic speed loss or things I can check/test etc.?
I’m a trainee electrician so have access to test equipment, just don’t know a lot about telecoms engineering!
Many thanks,
Danny
This is most strange. I’d check each component in sequence and check continuity of the circuit you have installed. Remarkably, broadband will work on one wire, albeit very slowly. If you have a dial tone, you have a circuit. If not, but you still have service, then check the cabling and termination.
Most fault-finding is a process of considered and careful elimination of thefaulty item.
Rob
Hi – thanks for this really informative post. I was hoping to follow it, but when I opened the faceplate to what I thought was our master socket, it didn’t look like your example. Inside there were only orange, blue & white cables linked to numbered sockets (1 – 6), and no A & B. I traced these cables back and they originate from a small junction box, around 5.5cm x 4cm, next to our front door. Inside the junction box the cables appear to join to the source cable from the outside of the house, however they also seem to join to the upstairs phone wiring (which I was hoping was connected to the master socket and wanted to disconnect it as it is no longer needed).
So my questions would be – what can I legally touch, and is there any point in installing a filtered faceplate and wiring this to a new socket? My broadband speeds are reasonable but we do have intermittent disconnections (3+ per day) and I was hoping that disconnecting the upstairs wiring and following your instructions would help with this by removing any source of interference.
Hello,
Thanks for your comment.
As there’s no master socket,there’s no clear point of demarcation between you and the network.
(“Obviously, I would never advise modifying Openreach’s network, but…) “some engineers” might add a master socket at the first point of entry, connect the broadband hub straight onto the line there, and see of the faults continue. If so, the issue is with Openreach’s side of things, and you need to report this to your provider.
If the problem has gone, then connect only what you need as extensions around the house, one-by-one, in order to determine which one might be causing problems. Once you find the one that is,then leave that disconnected.
As described in other blogs, you could add a second “master-type” socket, and connect the A and B (consumer-side) from that to A and B (normally-side), elsewhere in the building, and have the benefit of a more-effective filter.
I hope that this helps!
Rob
Great blog! You indeed have helped a lot of people!
I now have NTE5C master socket with an MK4 faceplate. As the location of the Master Socket is inconvenient, following your guidance, I installed the exact same NTE5C MK4 socket as a Secondary. I connected 2 and 5 from Master (in house wiring) to the back of the NTE5C Secondary. This gave no broadband signal on the Secondary. Then I connected the back A-B from the MK4 faceplate Master to the A-B of the MK4 faceplate Secondary. Now I have broadband and phone available on the MK4 faceplate. I also have a second extension from the MASTER 2 and 5 running to a socket and alarm panel.
When I plugged in the phone into the socket next to the alarm (without microfilter) incoming calls kept disconnecting the brpadband. I have therefore moved the phone and the router to the Secondary NTE5C/MK4. Broadband Connection now is stable but the issue I now have is that I have lost speed from 39999Kbps to about 30000Kbps.
My questions are:
1. Is the wiring between Master and Secondary (Master) correct?
2. Does the NTE5C/MK4 filter out the broadband from 2 and 5 (extension front of NTE5C – in house)?
3. Does the NTE5C/MK4 filter out the phone from AB (extension – back of filter plate)?
4. Any suggestions on cause of speed drop (cable is new and good quality BT)?
Connection Speed 32400 kbps 8496 kbps
Line Attenuation 17.2 dB 0.0 dB
Noise Margin 15.8 dB 14.14 dB
Thanks for your kind words. Sadly, I’m committed on other projects at the moment, so don’t currently have time to give a detailed reply today. I hope to be back to you soon, though. Rob.
Hi Rob, thanks for the informative blog. Before I start on this project, I wanted to ask if I can just use a CAT6 cable(about 15m) with RJ11 on both ends to move my router away from the Openreach faceplate. Or will I lose much signal that way? Thanks.
Hello,
Thanks for your kind words.
The loss over Cat 6 will be negligible. Cat 5 can run at good speeds up to 90M between devices if installed correctly, and Cat 6 will better that. You may struggle to get the cable terminated in a RJ11 plug, though! It’s designed to go into an RJ45 plug.
Hello Rob, and thank you for your informative pieces.
Thanks!
If I understand your instructions correctly, the master socket isn’t moved but duplicated. My original master socket has 3 other outlets daisy-chained to it. You don’t clearly state that existing secondary sockets should be disconnected.
Thanks for pointing this out. It’s implied (by omission), but not stated. I’ll add it in
Will the ‘dual’ master sockets be equally and equivalently functional as a single master socket?
Yes.
In part answer, I guess that having competing broadband devices is a bad idea but what about additional phones? Is the REN capacity increased?
The master does nothing to affect REN. Additional phones should be fine until you run out of ringing current from the line supply. REN is not such a critical issue as it used to be, as many folks used cordless base stations with their own power supply to power the ring function.
What is the effect of having ‘dual’ master sockets on the upstream (copper wires to the local green box/exchange) side?
Nothing that I know of – they are not drawing any extra current. The A and B pins on the faceplate (customer side of things) are simply allowing access to the line independent of the first filter. They are an unfiltered supply. Connect these two to the “line-side” A and B on the rear of the second socket and you’ve provided another filtered supply, unaffected by any other device connected to the line.
Again, thanks for your time,
You’re welcome. Thanks for asking interesting questions!
Rod.
Please see replies in italics above!
HI,
so just to confirm (prob me struggling to understand)
1. Wires into A and B on new filter which then plugs in to original master socket?
2. Wires from filter run to new location
3. Wires from filter are then wired into new master socket? or wired into the second filtered face plate which is then plugged into the new master socket?
4. Same wires into A & B at both ends or are they swapped at each end?
Sorry for any confusion caused!! (im trying!)
Rgds
Liam
Hello,
1. Wires into A and B on new filter which then plugs in to original master socket?
>Yes – there should be terminals marked “A” and “B” as well as “2,3, 5”.
2. Wires from filter run to new location
>Yes, from the A and B to where the other socket is.
3. Wires from filter are then wired into new master socket? or wired into the second filtered face plate which is then plugged into the new master socket?
>You will need a complete new master socket including the non-detachable bit that the Openreach cable usually terminates on (also marked “A” and “B”). There are widely available.
4. Same wires into A & B at both ends or are they swapped at each end?
>Yes, but this time you are terminating onto the “back” pins on the new socket, not the ones on the front filter plate. The polarity does not matter, although I’d always keep it the same just for the sake of good order!
I hope this makes sense. Thanks for visiting. Please leave some Google+, or Facebook feedback if you can!
Rob
Hi Rob,
Really useful info thank you.
Just wanted to ask something else as i’m not sure if you’ve already covered it?
My BT NTE5 Master Socket is in the hallway and i was going to replace it with a BT77A junction box and then run CW1724 cable (blue/blue white) from the junction box to my new NTE 5C /VDSL mk 4 socket (A B).
Then from the extension (2,3,5) port on NTE 5C i was going to run an extension to a BT 2/3 extension socket into another room.
However not wanting to break the law !! I will go down the route you have described as theoretically the old BT NTE5 will still act as a junction box anyway?
My query at this point is if i buy a new VDSL/ADSL faceplate for the old BT NTE5 Master Socket i understand if correct i can use A B on this to go to A B on the new NTE 5C/VDSL mk 4 socket (for both main phone and broadband) but if i want to also take my extension (just for second phone) from the old BT NTE5 is this possible or would i need to take the extension off the new NTE5C/ VDSL mk 4 extension port?
If i can take the extension from the old BT NTE 5C socket with the added VDSL/ADSL faceplate please can you advise which terminals should i use for the Blue/Blue White & Orange to go to the extension socket as A&B will already be taken up?
I know you’re probably think just get wireless phones off the new NTE5C/VDSL MK4 but i do like the current phones i have 🙂
Many Thanks
Mike
Hi Rob,
Really useful info thank you.
>You’re welcome!
Just wanted to ask something else as i’m not sure if you’ve already covered it?
>Can we do a swap for some Facebook, Google , and/or other social media feedback, please? This helps me to justify the time in giving free advice
My BT NTE5 Master Socket is in the hallway and i was going to replace it with a BT77A junction box and then run CW1724 cable (blue/blue white) from the junction box to my new NTE 5C /VDSL mk 4 socket (A B).
Then from the extension (2,3,5) port on NTE 5C i was going to run an extension to a BT 2/3 extension socket into another room.
However not wanting to break the law !! I will go down the route you have described as theoretically the old BT NTE5 will still act as a junction box anyway?
>This sounds sensible, as it eliminated Openreach raising any query whatsoever. Not that they probably would. By the way, there’s no “law” to break. I’m due to blog on the risks and potential penalties soon.
My query at this point is if i buy a new VDSL/ADSL faceplate for the old BT NTE5 Master Socket i understand if correct i can use A B on this to go to A B on the new NTE 5C/VDSL mk 4 socket (for both main phone and broadband) but if i want to also take my extension (just for second phone) from the old BT NTE5 is this possible or would i need to take the extension off the new NTE5C/ VDSL mk 4 extension port?
>I’m a bit confused here. Two NTE5C’s can be connected via the A and B pins. You can take your voice circuit(pins 2 and 5) from either NTE5C, as nothing will be affected. If you keep your old one totally intact, you could use 2 and 5 for your extension off that, but you would need a dangly plug-in filter at the terminating voice-only socket in the other room. Have I misunderstood you here?
If i can take the extension from the old BT NTE 5C socket with the added VDSL/ADSL faceplate please can you advise which terminals should i use for the Blue/Blue White & Orange to go to the extension socket as A&B will already be taken up?
>Still a bit confused – sorry! Using the A and B does not disable the 2,3,5 pins as far as I recall. Therefore, you can use 2 and 5 off this one for your room extension socket.
I know you’re probably think just get wireless phones off the new NTE5C/VDSL MK4 but i do like the current phones i have
> A good idea. Corded phones will keep working when the power goes off, unlike cordless. This is useful for the infirm and elderly who would not be able to diagnose power faults, restore service, and may well be distressed.
Meanwhile, if you need an engineer local to you, please let me know.
Many Thanks
Mike
>You’re welcome! Rob
Hi Rob, Thanks for a very good ( and long ) blog.
I am a retired BT maintenance engineer with many years experience as customer apps and lines mtce in Ayrshire Scotland, however I am still active in helping people with their telecom and IT issues.
If you ever get enquiries from Ayrshire, you are welcome to contact me, one way would be to submit a comment via my website.
Regards,
Martin.
PS I noted one previous poster saying his router dropped connection when he received an incoming phone call…had a recent case of this solved by a new filter..????
Thanks, Martin, for this comment, and your generous Google review. It’s much-appreciated, coming from a time-served professional of “the old school”.
I’ve recently r-written this blog to remove some errors, so to have it proof-read and vetted is timely.
I will contact you via email regarding a number of opportunities for work. Rob.
I’ve read and re-read your page but I must be missing something. Do I just get my 2 strands of wire and punch them down into the A+B terminals alongside the existing ones? Then the same in my new socket and plug in from there as normal?
Mine are a white and an orange wire not blue and blue-white.
I may re-write this blog to clarify this, as your point is a good one.
“A and B” on the customer side are only installed on the Mk3 and later face-plates. The earlier ones only have 2,3, and 5 on the customer side.
If you have an earlier version, I would suggest that you replace it with a later version, or use the older one, but connect to 2 and 5, then use a plug-in filter.
I hope this makes sense.
Great blog and comments, thank you. I have at least six telephone sockets in my house some working some not – this is partly a hangover from when we had two landlines (one for a fax). We now just have the one landline. But I am not sure which is the master socket. I want to be sure that I have my Sky hub plugged into it and I’m not sure that’s the case at the moment. My broadband speeds are very slow. And I’m frequently losing network connectivity on my Sky TV. Is there any way I can discover which is the master socket without bringing in a telephone engineer? If not can you recommend a telephone engineer in north London who can look at my set up? Thanks Rob
Thanks for your kind words.
If you Google “NTE5”, you will see a number of styles dating back to around 30 years ago. This may help identification.
Failing that, try and find where the “BT” (now Openreach) cable enters your property, then find the first socket or box that this meets.
I do have a number of contacts in your area. Let me have you postcode via the site “contact” page and I’ll see who can help. Tracing “historic” cables in a home can be more challenging than in a business premises! Rob.
So Ive installed a cat5 cable using just two cores to A and B however my speed measured drastically slower, I then sacked off the A and B and connected an RJ11 plug plugged it in the front of the face playter and the same, do I need to give my router more time to “stabilise”
(Iwent from A and B to a dedicated RJ11 socket and then a cable from that to the router, tested cable for continuity and all is good, Im at a loss)
Thanks in advance Glenn (confused sparky)
Hello Glenn,
If you are a “sparks”, then you’ll be familiar with the slow process of elimination in fault-finding. It’s just the same process required here – I’d start with a dangle filter on the test side of the master socket, test speed, add the front plate (test again), then onto your run of cable, etc, etc. On the Openreach line side, is there a dial tone with no noise? If one leg of the pair to the exchange is disconnected, then you will get a broadband service, but a slow one. My feeling is that this could be either a line, filter (get a substitute) or master socket issue. I hope that this helps. Rob.
Hi Rob
On it mate, thanks for the filter tip, got a couple knocking about somewhere.
The joys of fault finding!!!
Glenn
Hi Rob,
Many thanks for your comments. Perhaps I need to explain a little more – but I still may be wrong in what I intend to do! Firstly, I understand, and I may be mistaken here, that the A&B terminals on the MK4 faceplate for the NTE5C are unfiltered – am I correct or not? If not, then the rest is wrong as you identified. Howere, I will work on the premis that it is unfiltered. If I connect Orange to A and Blue to B using CW1308, then run the cable up the wall into my loft (I have a bungalow), then down through an old cannelling previously used for a coaxial cable to a disused TV socket backbox. OK, at this point it is unclear as what to use. I do have a new NTE5C that I can use, but in a blog you wrote on the NTE5C, you mentioned that this new box does not particularly like being fitted to recessed backboxes – uneven surfaces. So, I thought it may be feasible to use a new NTE5A that I have and connect the Orange to the A and Blue to the B connectors to the back of this. Finally inserting a filtered MK3 faceplate to the NTE5A to give me the data and phone sockets. However, if I am incorrect in the initial element, i.e. that the A&B on the MK4 faceplate is actually filtered, then it doesn’t work as you say. I could use an unfiltered MK3 faceplate and connect orange to 5 and blue to 2 on the unfiltered faceplate, but I assume that I would then need a dangling filter, but does that not cause the same problem as connecting to A&B at the back of the NTE5A, i.e. filters at both ends? Boy, this is getting more confusing the more I write! Apologies for babbling on.
Many thanks for your comments. Perhaps I need to explain a little more – but I still may be wrong in what I intend to do! Firstly, I understand, and I may be mistaken here, that the A&B terminals on the MK4 faceplate for the NTE5C are unfiltered – am I correct or not?
>The A and B on the front are a filtered ADSL/VDSL signal. Add another filter downstream of these and the signal will disappear.
If not, then the rest is wrong as you identified.
> I made the same mistake and blogged about it confidently!
Howere, I will work on the premis that it is unfiltered. If I connect Orange to A and Blue to B using CW1308, then run the cable up the wall into my loft (I have a bungalow), then down through an old cannelling previously used for a coaxial cable to a disused TV socket backbox. OK, at this point it is unclear as what to use. I do have a new NTE5C that I can use, but in a blog you wrote on the NTE5C, you mentioned that this new box does not particularly like being fitted to recessed backboxes – uneven surfaces.
>Correct.
So, I thought it may be feasible to use a new NTE5A that I have and connect the Orange to the A and Blue to the B connectors to the back of this. Finally inserting a filtered MK3 faceplate to the NTE5A to give me the data and phone sockets. However, if I am incorrect in the initial element, i.e. that the A&B on the MK4 faceplate is actually filtered, then it doesn’t work as you say. I could use an unfiltered MK3 faceplate and connect orange to 5 and blue to 2 on the unfiltered faceplate, but I assume that I would then need a dangling filter, but does that not cause the same problem as connecting to A&B at the back of the NTE5A, i.e. filters at both ends? Boy, this is getting more confusing the more I write! Apologies for babbling on.
>As per what I advocate in this blog (I think – or elsewhere) treat the A and B as a data signal and terminate it straight onto pins 4 and 5 (“blues”) an RJ45 socket. Plug your RJ11 from your hub in the front. Done! There are low-profle combined back-boxes and sockets available via eBay.
Hi Rob, as always, sound advice. It seems rather strange that the A&B terminals on the faceplate are filtered as they technically represent a direct connection to the A&B at the back of the NTE5C. Logic would lead us to believe that the ‘filtering’ would take place after the A&B terminals, i.e. between the terminals and the RJ11 data socket, but when have BT or their successors ever been logical!
So it looks like I cannot ‘mirror’ my original Master socket by installing one in the lounge. The problem is that where the original is currently situated it means power leads crossing the doorway to the mains socket to power my router and base station for cordless phone. Therefore it is essential that I find a way of doing this which includes phone and router. Your suggestion previously that I use a BT78A seems the most logical, but what does that mean regarding Openreach and the ‘demarcation’ between Openreach and user? Just to add, the external cable comes in underground and only has about 60cm showing before it disappears into the wall behind the connecting socket, so no real option of putting a joint there and running external cable up to the loft.
Many thanks. John.
Filtered A and B – This did catch me out, too! Early versions had a small paper note in the bag with the socket explaining this.
Of course, your Master Socket is Openreach’s property, and you shouldn’t really move it…
But, (theoretically, of course 🙂 ), a cable could be jointed using jelly crimp connectors inside the current socket back-box, a blanking plate fitted on the front, and the socket re-sited. You could even (in theory) joint in that box, then run an external-grade cable back through the same hole, out, and up the wall to the new location. There are other options that an independent engineer could execute for you should you not feel confident.
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the response. I’ll have a think about your suggestion and make a decision whether to give it a go myself or call a local engineer. However, on the topic of filtered/unfiltered A&B terminals, were the A&B terminals on the NTE5A faceplate unfiltered or were these too filtered? The reason I ask is that when the Openreach engineer came 12 months ago to solve a connection issue, he removed an NTE5A socket and replaced it with the NTE5C. If the original NTE5A Master had unfiltered A&B terminals on the faceplate would that solve my filter issue? Not sure what model the faceplate is but it has a single phone socket on the removable bottom half. You can probably tell that I am now clutching at straws.
Hello, forgive me being stupid but I got confused with a bit of what you say.
My problem: I have a new install with a BT master socket comprising 5c backplate and mk4 faceplate. This has output for broadband and voice telephone. It’s VDSL for information.
But… it’s in the wrong place. I want voice and data elsewhere.
IF I take a wire from the A&B which is on the inside of the faceplate and take that to an extension point. Does it carry both voice and data.
Furthermore, can I use another 5c and mk4 as my extension socket? Would the wiring be:
from A&B on inside of mk 4 faceplate of master socket …. TO A&B input on 5c of my extension socket. I then fix a mk 4 faceplace on the extension and have both data and voice.
I intend to plug one phone into the master socket.
I also intend to plug another phone and the VDSL modem/route into the extension socket.
Please correct whatever I’ve got wrong in this plan! Many thanks
Hello, forgive me being stupid but I got confused with a bit of what you say.
>Hello! No problem. Life was easier pre-broadband when we had one phone line and one dial phone… 🙂
My problem: I have a new install with a BT master socket comprising 5c backplate and mk4 faceplate. This has output for broadband and voice telephone. It’s VDSL for information.
>That’s fine – the blog covers VDSL, too.
But… it’s in the wrong place. I want voice and data elsewhere.
Most of them are!
IF I take a wire from the A&B which is on the inside of the faceplate and take that to an extension point. Does it carry both voice and data.
As far as I know, yes. But it is best to treat them separately. Use A and B for broadband, 2 and 5 for voice. That’s the point of having A and B.
Furthermore, can I use another 5c and mk4 as my extension socket? Would the wiring be:
from A&B on inside of mk 4 faceplate of master socket …. TO A&B input on 5c of my extension socket. I then fix a mk 4 faceplace on the extension and have both data and voice.
No. Adding another filter to the filtered output stops the broadband working.
I intend to plug one phone into the master socket.
I also intend to plug another phone and the VDSL modem/route into the extension socket.
Where? I would recommend keeping voice and VDSL separate from the first master socket. Use 2 and 5 for voice, A and B for data. A good DECT (cordless) device should cover an average-to-large house. I recommend Panasonic and tend to avoid BT. Cable a short extension from 2 and 5 to a separate scoket if plugging straight into the master socket isn’t feasible.
Please correct whatever I’ve got wrong in this plan! Many thanks
You’re welcome! If this has been helpful, please lea ve Google or Facebook feedback, as this helps me to justify the time spent on replies. Rob
Hello and thanks for your quick reply.
One aspect of your reply confuses me. IF the A&B on the inside of the mk4 faceplate contains both data and voice and is hence NOT filtered????? what would be the problem of sending that to a 5c/mk4 for voice and data. Because then the only filter would be the one on the extension.
However, if the A&B on the inside of the mk4 faceplate is filtered then I can see your point.
Many thanks.
Yes, that’s easy – simply joint the incoming with a 78A connector and terminate on the NTE5 elsewhere.
Hello Mr Govier,
I have one Openreach Master 5c Mk4 in the house, in a room where I don’t need it (of course!).
I would like to have broadband in three other rooms. Is it possible or advisable to extend this in sequence from the Master, or is there a different socket I could obtain which would facilitate a star extension?
Many thanks,
William Robinson
Hello,
You can plug your router into a plug-in filter using one of the spare sockets at a time. The extension would then need to be connected to pins 2 and 5 on the front of the master socket. However, you then lose the benefit of the advance filtering in the faceplate. My suggestion would be to run RJ45 from your LAN ports on the router (elegant and efficient, but requiring cabling work, which may not be feasible), or relocating your master to the optimum location in the house, and using the wifi for broadband service. If you have a prime requirement for broadband (a TV box for Netflix, etc), locate the new master close to the required location and plug the device into the router there. Feel free to revert for any clarification. Rob.
Thank you for your reply. I think I probably didn’t explain properly what I was trying to achieve, which is to have three broadband sockets in the house, so as not to have to use WiFi, except for phones or laptops. This is because we use three main tower computers, and wired connections are always better than WiFi. Hence why I was trying to have three sockets, each providing a filtered broadband. Does that make sense?
Thanks again,
William Robinson
Thanks for the clarification. For hard-wired ADSL, one line equals one router. Multiple routers on the same line won’t work. I don’t think that htis is what you are suggesting, but I thought I’d clarify that anyway.
The first thought I had is probably the way to go, namely connect to the LAN ports on the router and run ethernet (cat 5/cat 6) cables from there. That way, multiple devices can run from the same router and hence same ADSL service. If devices are adjacent to exterior walls, then external Cat 5/Cat 6 cable can be run from the router via the outside of the house. This minimises external disruption. You could re-site your master socket, hence router to an optimum position. Hopefully I’ve understood your requirement.
Hello Rob,
I have Fibre to cabinet and a BT mk2 master socket . When the house was built 19 years ago , we had a number of extensions hard wired in the walls to various rooms. We now no longer use phone extensions or a land line phone in the house but I do have a need to move the ASUS router to a ne location and would like to use one of the previous extensions. After reading your excellent posts, I am minded to disconnect the existing connections to the old style wall plates and install RJ45 plates connecting them on a data hardwired network. As I see it , I need to connect Blue and White/blue to A and B on the front side of the Mk 2 master plate and then connect the same wires to A and B on each of the RJ45 plates .I can disregard the other pairs. Ive tried this with the first extension in line using a cat 6 RJ45 outlet kit but I get no connection when I plug the router in to the extension. I have no problem on the master. Have I got this all wrong or am I connection to the wrong terminals on a Cat 6 plate?
Thanks for kind words. This is quite a creative solution! The pins to use on the RJ45 sockets are the “blue – blue/white ones” these correspond tot he centre two pins on an RJ45 or RJ11 plug. They are wires 4 and 5 on an ethernet patch lead (take a close look at one). I don’t recognise “A and B” on an RJ45 socket. I hope that his gets you working. Rob.
Thanks for that Rob, but I’m still puzzled . My Rj45 socket has 2 rows of pins numbered 2,1,6,3 down one side and 8,7,4,5 on the other. Next to 1 and 7 in very small letters on both sides are printed AB so I assumed that the blue – blue white wires that I had connected to the master plate would go into 1 and 7 . This seems to fit with what you say about the centre two pins. However there is colour marking next to the pins which confuses matters. 5 has blue/white -4 has blue -7 has brown/white- 8 has brown 3 has orange/green – 6 has Green/orange 1 has orange as does 2. ! Who the hell ever created this monster of a system?
Finally , the wires coming in to the AB terminals on the BT side of the Master socket are white with blue stripes at intervals and blue with grey stripes at intervals. I assume that these are the data wires but I had expected them to be a different colour and a twisted pair.
Thanks for that Rob, but I’m still puzzled . My Rj45 socket has 2 rows of pins numbered 2,1,6,3 down one side and 8,7,4,5 on the other. Next to 1 and 7 in very small letters on both sides are printed AB so I assumed that the blue – blue white wires that I had connected to the master plate would go into 1 and 7 .
>No. The “A” and “B” refer to the 568A and 568B protocols of cable termination for these modules. There is a difference in where the oranges and greens go under each protocol. This is abbreviated to “A” and “B” on the module pins labelling.
This seems to fit with what you say about the centre two pins. However there is colour marking next to the pins which confuses matters. 5 has blue/white -4 has blue -7 has brown/white- 8 has brown 3 has orange/green – 6 has Green/orange 1 has orange as does 2. ! Who the hell ever created this monster of a system?
>Commonly-used world-wide but potentially confusing for the unfamiliar. It’s the “blues” on 4 and 5 you need to use.
Finally , the wires coming in to the AB terminals on the BT side of the Master socket are white with blue stripes at intervals and blue with grey stripes at intervals. I assume that these are the data wires but I had expected them to be a different colour and a twisted pair.
>Obviously you should take your feed from the customer side of the master socket, from either the filtered ADSL “A” and “B” pair, or the voice pair “2” and “5”. I don’t know why they should be this colour, unless jointed elsewhere. The twist often comes out of the cable if not handled well. Strictly, they are not a “data” pair, but also carry voice with ADSL/VDSL.
Hi again Rob, I think the penny has dropped. Pins 4 and 5 ( coloured blue-ale/white on the plate, correspond to the 2 centre pins of the plug i.e the 2 data wires that go to the modem router. I shall try that and see what occurs.
Yes, that’s it!
Hallelujah it works fine . Can’t see any appreciable speed loss so all’s well. Thanks very much for your patience – its much appreciated .
Good news! Meanwhile, could I scrounge some social media feedback, please? This helps me to justify time spent giving free advice:-
https://goo.gl/maps/p1n9wxi5T6p
http://www.facebook.com/telecomgreen
twitter.com/phone_engineers
Thanks in anticipation.
Meanwhile, ,based on the domain name in your email address, it’s probable that I have served some of your company’s products when serving at Great Central Railway Beer Festivals.
We don’t have an NTE socket just a very old bakelite box behind the front door with jelly crimps inside going between the incoming BT line and two extension sockets. We only use one of the extensions with a microfilter for VDSL and phone. Am I better off replacing this Bakelite box with an NTE5c without the inbuilt filter (would never be used as it’s behind the front door so a nightmare to get power to) then running the extension we use out of that (leaving the other disconnected). Or would I be better putting in a BT78a where the bakelite box is between the incoming BT line and the extension we use and changing that extension faceplate out to an NTE5c with the filterplate? I’ve done a lot of ethernet installs so am more than happy with punchdowns.
. Or would I be better putting in a BT78a where the bakelite box is between the incoming BT line and the extension we use and changing that extension faceplate out to an NTE5c with the filterplate?
Yes, certainly my recommendation. Use decent CW1308-spec cable. Rob
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your informative blog posts and for continuing to respond to queries! My telephone cable enters my property via the bathroom wall, then runs under the floor, then up one side of a door frame and down the other side, to the master socket. It is surface mounted to the door frame, with small u-shaped staples and several layers of old paint. I don’t want to move the master socket at all, but I do want to strip the paint from that door frame, which will require me to temporarily (and carefully) remove the cable from the frame. There’s no need for me to disconnect it at all from the master socket, but I was just wondering if there was any chance that I would damage it in moving it, and if so if you have any tips other than just to proceed with care?
Many thanks!
Thanks for your kind words.
“Proceed with care” is quite right. The cable is quite robust, though. However, with my “home decor” hat on, I would doubt if the old paint would come off evenly, so it may look messy as a result. Re-cabling might be a preferable option. I hope that this helps! Rob.
Okay, thanks. I’ll give it a careful go first, then resort to a re-cable if it looks like the proverbial dog’s dinner…
Have a good weekend.
Thanks. On the other hand, very thick layered pain can often break straight off leaving a clean surface, like the coating of a toffee apple.
Thank you Rob for a fantastic job on moving the master socket and providing the company with much needed comms in the right area! Highly recommended engineer and would use again.
Hi Rob, good info! My uncles house: Line comes in upstairs, newish Nte5c/Mk4 fitted there, 2 voice extensions run from that. He just bought bb and the extension downstairs wont run the bb (understood as hes trying to run it off an old style extension with a plug in filter). BB gets sync upstairs in the Mk4 data socket but he needs the router by the tv downstairs (provides internet tv content via ethernet from router) So im thinking i’ll run a data extension as you described and re-check the 2/5/3 wiring for the telco. Thing is that takes me up to 5 wires running internally (3 voice and 2 data) and the house is only wired with 4 core atm, which means floorboards up etc & rewire it all in 6 or 8 core….Any ideas ? TIA. (I’m hoping to stay clear of wireless, ie: have the router upstairs and connect to the tv & pc downstairs wirelessly, as its a solid built old house).
Hi Rob, good info!
>Thank-you!
My uncles house: Line comes in upstairs, newish Nte5c/Mk4 fitted there, 2 voice extensions run from that. He just bought bb and the extension downstairs wont run the bb (understood as hes trying to run it off an old style extension with a plug in filter).
>It won’t – The only sources of broadband are the small socket (RJ11) on the front, or the terminals “A and B” on the customer side of the socket. Voice terminals 2 and 5 don’t have an output, only voice.
BB gets sync upstairs in the Mk4 data socket but he needs the router by the tv downstairs (provides internet tv content via ethernet from router) So im thinking i’ll run a data extension as you described and re-check the 2/5/3 wiring for the telco. Thing is that takes me up to 5 wires running internally (3 voice and 2 data) and the house is only wired with 4 core atm, which means floorboards up etc & rewire it all in 6 or 8 core….Any ideas ?
>Run a Cat 5 from the ethernet port on the router to a socket next to the TV (or other devices). Running it via the outside, using external-grade cable, avoids internal disruption. This is by far the most reliable way of distributing a service around the house to fixed devices.
TIA. (I’m hoping to stay clear of wireless, ie: have the router upstairs and connect to the tv & pc downstairs wirelessly, as its a solid built old house).
>I have blogged about this hard-wire connection solution elsewhere on this site. A “plan B” would be to relocate the master socket and use a set of cordless phones (one base, one or two secondary devices) to provide voice.
I hope that this helps. Google reviews always welcomed in exchange for free advice! Simply search for “Telecom Green” then look for the reviews section in the Google responses.
Google review left. Thanks again, R.
Thanks. In tough times it’s much=appreciated. I’m probably over-generous in offering free help. It takes time to understand, analyse, and reply. Hence, a Google review is valued in helping revenue customers to find us.
Hi Rob, I found your fantastic site after the Openreach engineer turned up a few days ago and installed a new NTE5C/Mk4. I have 4 daisy-chained extension sockets, of which the final one is in my study at the other side of the house and is the one I have always used for the router connection as this location is the hub for all my wired ethernet cabling in the house. All extensions are wired using CW 1308 3-pair cable. It’s not practical to run any new wiring from the study back to the master socket because of its very inconvenient location!
While the BB download speed to the master socket has increased significantly (31 to 55 Mbps), my problem is that the Openreach engineer connected the extension wiring to terminals 2+3+5 so the extension sockets are now phone only, but I still want to get the data across to my study!
From reading your site, I see that Option 1 is to move the extension wiring from 2+3+5 to A+B on the master socket faceplate and use a filter in the extension socket in my study (or ideally replace it with a filtered socket). Intermediate extension sockets would need filters for any phones.
For Option 2 I’m wondering whether I could leave 2+3+5 connected to the master socket but also connect the unused 3rd pair of wires (green & white/white & green) to the A+B on the master socket faceplate and rewire just my study extension socket to use this 3rd pair. As far as I can see, this seems likely to give a better data connection to my study and means the intermediate extension sockets can be phone-only with no filtering required.
I haven’t seen anyone suggest using both sets of connections in the master socket in this way so I’m wondering if there’s a drawback I’ve missed. Is Option 2 feasible and do you see any disadvantages compared with Option 1?
Hi Rob, I found your fantastic site after the Openreach engineer turned up a few days ago and installed a new NTE5C/Mk4. I have 4 daisy-chained extension sockets, of which the final one is in my study at the other side of the house and is the one I have always used for the router connection as this location is the hub for all my wired ethernet cabling in the house. All extensions are wired using CW 1308 3-pair cable. It’s not practical to run any new wiring from the study back to the master socket because of its very inconvenient location!
>Thanks for your kind words. Google reviews always welcomed :-). You might want to consider routing an external-grade data cable (Cat 5e) via the exterior of the house.
While the BB download speed to the master socket has increased significantly (31 to 55 Mbps), my problem is that the Openreach engineer connected the extension wiring to terminals 2+3+5 so the extension sockets are now phone only, but I still want to get the data across to my study!
From reading your site, I see that Option 1 is to move the extension wiring from 2+3+5 to A+B on the master socket faceplate and use a filter in the extension socket in my study (or ideally replace it with a filtered socket). Intermediate extension sockets would need filters for any phones.
>Not quite – A and B give a filtered broadband service only, not voice (as far as I am aware).
For Option 2 I’m wondering whether I could leave 2+3+5 connected to the master socket but also connect the unused 3rd pair of wires (green & white/white & green) to the A+B on the master socket faceplate and rewire just my study extension socket to use this 3rd pair. As far as I can see, this seems likely to give a better data connection to my study and means the intermediate extension sockets can be phone-only with no filtering required.
>I’ve never known of it done like this, but it’s worth a try. However, don’t use another filter as this will kill the signal. At the router end, use a RJ45 socket and plug your RJ11 router cable straight into that. Yes, it will fit, and it’s a solution commonly-used by some of my major commercial customers. Punch down your “green” pair onto terminals 4 and 5 (marked as blue-white/white-blue). This should give you a service. You may lose a bit of speed depending on what the green pair on the voice cable passes, how it’s jointed, etc. It may act as an aerial for interference. Joint the green pair independent of any pins by using jelly crimp connectors. Hopefully, the “greens” run all the way to where you want them. It’s not always the case… Some DIY wiring is quite “creative” in the manner of Salvador Dali. My preferred solution would be to run data cable via the exterior. This may not be a feasible option, though.
I haven’t seen anyone suggest using both sets of connections in the master socket in this way so I’m wondering if there’s a drawback I’ve missed. Is Option 2 feasible and do you see any disadvantages compared with Option 1?
>As per above. Option 2 is the only choice, and is “a quick fix”. It may work very well! Meanwhile, if you need an independent engineer to quote for cabling, please let me have your postcode. A Google review based on advice given helps me to justify time taken in considered responses. Thank-you. Rob
Hi Rob Thanks in advance and I hope this isn’t a tediously ‘dumb’ question.
Master socket in the hall needs ‘moved’ 10 meters to locate router in another room – would this
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08P2DCLK3/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=0271485aeeb98b13e7da485eee90c418&hsa_cr_id=8412482600102&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=1e8a757c-871b-4118-b02f-48695cae16b8&pd_rd_w=gxuTv&pd_rd_wg=v8XSd&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_1_img
be an easy/workable solution??
Well, that’s one way of doing it!
The issue with these kind of leads is that, if there isn’t a “twist” in the cable, then they can slow the speed significantly. Parallel conductors in a cable are not good. Furthermore, many similar leads, knocked out in bulk in the Far East for less than 10p, are of very poor quality, and often have faults from new.
My preference would be to move the socket, using a 78A connector, plus BT-spec CW1308 cable from a reputable source. Much more on the blogs to hunt out on this topic.
Having said all that, it’s a low-cost, low-risk option – you could plug it in and find it’s absolutely fine!
Rob, Thanks so much – I’d naively thought that the cable was twisted pair ‘Doh’ Not 100% comfortable with messing with BT’s kit. How about this cable. It mentions being ok for Fritzbox routers (which is what I have from Zen int) RJ11 & RJ45 plus twisted pair CW1308 spec cable?
https://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/adsl-vdsl-patch-leads/
Thx
Eric
Eric,
This looks suitable, doing exactly what you want. I’ve always been impressed with Run IT Direct, as they have informed and intelligent content as well as kit that folks actually need. Rob.
Rob, Thank you for your time and patience – you’re a star.E
You’re welcome. If you can give a “Google Review”, please, then that would help justify me taking the time to give free advice. Simply search for “Telecom Green Ltd TS16”, look for the five stars, and the link to “write a review”. I’m trying to get to 100. Thanks.
Rob.
Hi Rob
Great blog.
The BT cable comes directly into the house and terminates onto a Master Socket 5C. I need to relocate the socket as it was mounted in a wall that is no longer there, so socket is just hanging currently. I can just about move it to an adjacent wall but I need to get the broadband signal to a different location. The 5C master has A and B on the BT side but the removable part has no A or B just some terminals (IDC ?) marked 5, 3, 7. What are my options?
Hello,
Thanks for your kind words.
If you only have the 5C without the Mk4 filter on the front (jut a small half-p;late with a BT socket in it), then yes, you will only have A and B on the back, then 5, 3 and 2 on the other side, behind the half-plate.
More information on my “guided tour” from 2017 via the link below.
https://telecomgreen.co.uk/home-phone-repair/bt-openreach-new-nte5c-master-socket-guided-tour/
You have two options:
1/ Connect another socket to 2 and 5, via cable, to another extension socket, and plug in a basic micro-filter. This would not be my favoured choice, as the microfilters don’t give the best performance, plus it’s best not to introduce extension wiring to your broadband service – straight off the master socket is best. However, your resources and physical layout may dictate this.
2/ Joint the incoming cable using either a 78A joint box, or externally, a weatherproof joint of Openreach spec. Buy a filtered faceplate, and plug your router into that. A combined NTE5C with a Mk 4 filter can be had for very little via Amazon or eBay. A local independent engineer could help if you are not confident of doing the work.
There’s much more on the blogs about this (moving sockets, jointing, etc) if you have a rootle around. I hope that this helps. Google Reviews always welcomed! Rob.
Hi, This is truly wonderful information.
I have followed your guide and successfully installed a new NETC Mk2 socket. We have just moved into a house which previously had the older type BT socket that needed the dangly filter, so we have now moved on a bit.
My dilemma now is that I cant get a decent wifi signal in the upstairs corner of the house. As my shiny new socket does have an A and B on the customer side, im wondering if I can run a new line from this, up the outside wall and into the loft. Once in the loft, connect to another “master” socket using A and B. Can I then connect a spare router to this socket and therefore improve wifi upstairs ?
I have 2 BT smart hubs, both the same model. 1 currently in use downstairs.
In summary, 2 routers from 2 master sockets, but using one phone line ??
Hi, This is truly wonderful information.
>Thank-you.
I have followed your guide and successfully installed a new NETC Mk2 socket. We have just moved into a house which previously had the older type BT socket that needed the dangly filter, so we have now moved on a bit.
>Good!
My dilemma now is that I cant get a decent wifi signal in the upstairs corner of the house. As my shiny new socket does have an A and B on the customer side, im wondering if I can run a new line from this, up the outside wall and into the loft.
>Yes, but using data cable, terminating on a data socket in the new location. You would then have a broadband service, filtered at the point of entry to the property,running on external Cat5e cable, hence clear of major sources of interference.
Once in the loft, connect to another “master” socket using A and B. Can I then connect a spare router to this socket and therefore improve wifi upstairs ?
>No. One line,one service, one master socket, one router. Connect the data cable to a socket, plug in your router cable, and off you go.
I have 2 BT smart hubs, both the same model. 1 currently in use downstairs.
In summary, 2 routers from 2 master sockets, but using one phone line ??
>No, As above. Only one supply to one router. You can run data services from your router via it’s RJ45 sockets. These can be hard-wired devices such as a TV box or a desktop. For better wifi coverage, wire another wireless transmitter somewhere in the building. I use a Tenda MW6 to serve a large extension at the opposite side of the house from my router.
Much more further reading on data cabling a house on my blogs. I am currently suffering in bed with covid, so I’m too ill/lazy to send the links. Sorry!
Google Reviews always welcomed… 🙂
Rob.
Hi Rob. I changed the master socket’s face plate when we moved in years ago. Now looking at siting the router/hub elsewhere and wondered why there is no mention of an ADSL extension anywhere? Just thinking of running a good quality/BT cable with RJ11 connectors from the master socket, elsewhere in the house – so as to connect the hub there instead – and run ethernet connections out from there? Is it solely a speed-loss issue that we would be looking at, or are there other implications? Thanks in advance.
Hello,
Later master sockets have the customer-side “A and B” pins which deliver filtered broadband,and to which can be attached a pair from a Cat 5e /Cat 5 cable running to an RJ45 socket,then via your RJ11-equipped cable to your router. Hard-wiring is always better than plug-in monstrous-length flat cords.
Running Cat5e cables out from your router is an equally good idea. One of these can easily be a wifi access point,so you are not dependent on your router’s location for optimal wifi coverage.
Hopefully I have understood your question correctly, and something of my response is helpful.
Many thanks. So I changed the face plate and it now has ADSL and phone connections. My plan had been to use a BT cable and RJ11 connectors to re-site the router, with a view to running CAT5 cables from its new location. One needs to go to an outbuilding, one upstairs and a third will go ‘back’ to the room where the router currently is. WIFI isn’t a factor. If we leave the router where it is, all the Cat5 cables need to go through multiple walls, etc – hence the need to relocate the router more centrally. I just wondered why a 6/7 meter 2 pin ADSL ‘extension’ lead to pop the router in the next room may not be a common approach? I suppose the work around is to leave the hub where it is, run a Cat5 cable to the next room and connect to a network switch, or similar – then connect the other incoming cables there?
The RJ11 connectors do not accept crimped-on BT CW1308 cable (if that’s what you mean.) The losses would be minimal, providing the cable was of a decent quality (hard to determine by sight). My preference is always to make as little use of these RJ11-RJ11 flat cables as possible, and let decent Cat5e do the job of moving the data around. The use of the central switch seems a much better idea, and one commonly-used in a business setting.
Much appreciated Rob. Thank you.
You’re welcome. Google Reviews are always welcomed. I’m trying to get to 100, and I’m currently at around 86.
Hi Rob, I went through your blog and foundb very useful and informaiton that I need. I have a question though.
So, I bought this new house and it had no master box (or was removed with wires disconnected).
I arranged for BT to install master box and in preparation also ran a Cat6 cable from a location where BT would install master socket to my dasta cabinet in an another oom where I want put router and phone.
The Openreach enginner installed the Master Socket 5c with dual socket (phone + ADSL) face palte and left the internal Cat6 cable coiled inside the master socket.
Now if I understood correctly from your post, wheb I reome the face plate, I have filetred voice inside (2,3,5) and filtered data on the back of the front plate. There is no unfiltered A&B anywhere inside the mater for customer connection. Am I correct?
Now, I want to extend the connection to my data cabinet. I have one Cat6 cable so there are enough cores to connect filtered voice and filtered data signals but I have to land the cable in one outlet (as only one cable) but my question is how and where do I terminate on the data cabinet? I don’t seem to find a normal faceplate with one telephone and one RJ11 /RJ45 outlet. So how do I proceed?
Please advise.
Hi Rob, I went through your blog and foundb very useful and informaiton that I need.
>Thank-you!
I have a question though. So, I bought this new house and it had no master box (or was removed with wires disconnected).
I arranged for BT to install master box and in preparation also ran a Cat6 cable from a location where BT would install master socket to my dasta cabinet in an another oom where I want put router and phone.
The Openreach enginner installed the Master Socket 5c with dual socket (phone + ADSL) face palte and left the internal Cat6 cable coiled inside the master socket.
>Yes, this is as expected.
Now if I understood correctly from your post, wheb I reome the face plate, I have filetred voice inside (2,3,5) and filtered data on the back of the front plate. There is no unfiltered A&B anywhere inside the mater for customer connection. Am I correct?
>If you look on the rear of the detachable frontplate, you will see two cam-lock connectors marked A and B. This is a filtered broadband service, and cab=n be used to connect to an RJ45 socket, into which you can plug in your router (at the other end of your Cat 6)
Now, I want to extend the connection to my data cabinet. I have one Cat6 cable so there are enough cores to connect filtered voice and filtered data signals but I have to land the cable in one outlet (as only one cable) but my question is how and where do I terminate on the data cabinet? I don’t seem to find a normal faceplate with one telephone and one RJ11 /RJ45 outlet. So how do I proceed? Please advise.
>Personally, I would always use a separate voice and data cable. Meanwhile, Screwfix is your friend! They can provide a face plate that will allow plug-in modules of both type to be inserted. Take a look at the following part numbers:-
967098
51057
42092
I hope that this helps.
If my information (both on the site and in reply) has been useful, would you be able to leave a Google Review for Telecom Green Ltd, please? This helps me to justify spending time in replies.
Thanks in anticipation.
Rob
Rob, thank for a very informative blog; I’ve read many of your articles over the past year.
I am currently upgrading my master socket, which is unfortunately in the loft, to the latest version. I am planning to extend both the filtered and unfiltered lines to a single back box in a more sensible location use euro modules: a British telephone module and a RJ11 module. I believe this requires 5 wires from the master socket (for some reason I can’t understand but which is probably not relevant here). I have plenty of unshielded Cat 6 network cable available, which is solid copper and has four twisted pairs.
My question is: Can I run both the filtered and unfiltered signals through a single cable without loss of performance? If I do need to use two wires, can they run parallel to each other without loss of performance, as long as I avoid going near mains voltage electrics?
Thanks for taking time to read this. I am more than happy to leave you a review on Google.
Rob, thank for a very informative blog; I’ve read many of your articles over the past year.
Thank-you!
I am currently upgrading my master socket, which is unfortunately in the loft, to the latest version. I am planning to extend both the filtered and unfiltered lines to a single back box in a more sensible location use euro modules: a British telephone module and a RJ11 module. I believe this requires 5 wires from the master socket (for some reason I can’t understand but which is probably not relevant here).
4 only – 2 for the voice from pins 2 and 5, 2 for DSL, the “A” and “B” on the customer side, (if you have the most recent type of master socket.)
I have plenty of unshielded Cat 6 network cable available, which is solid copper and has four twisted pairs.
My question is: Can I run both the filtered and unfiltered signals through a single cable without loss of performance? If I do need to use two wires, can they run parallel to each other without loss of performance, as long as I avoid going near mains voltage electrics?
Both ideas sound fine. I frequently deal with around 30 or more cat 5/6 cables running on cable trays in office environments with no problems.
Thanks for taking time to read this. I am more than happy to leave you a review on Google.
Thanks again – this blog is a net cost to the business (I refuse to infest it with ads!), so any benefit I can get from Google Reviews is highly appreciated!